There is an element of negativity surrounding Age of Sigmar, I can understand why to a certain extent. It’s a huge change and some people aren’t prepared to throw away what they’ve worked for because they have invested a lot of time, effort and money into the hobby. After the jump, I want to talk sense, no scare mongering and offer a positive outlook to some of these concerns.
The main concerns that I can see are Game Balance, Obsolete Models/Rules, and The Unknown!
Game Balance
This lack of balance in Age of Sigmar is a myth. If your opponent places a Bloodthirster on the table, make sure the next unit you place is something to deal with it. It’s highly unlikely your opponent will keep placing Bloodthirsters.
Imagine a game where you don’t know what army you’re going to use, you just place units in response to his. You stop placing units to avoid being beaten by sudden death.
Placing units in response is fairer than the old system where your legal army of foot sloggers could end up just facing a wall of canons. Not having to agree army lists before a game means when you see the first couple of canons going down you can rummage around in your collection and start placing stuff to deal with it instead of being stuck with a pre-determined list that can’t beat an enemy.
Bringing all your models and not using all of them is nothing new. How many times have we turned up to a GW with 2000pt 40k armies only to have opponents with only 1500pts.
If you want to be traditional and collect an army and always use that army no matter what then you will have to be prepared for the odd game where it feels unbalanced. Personally I like the idea of turning up with everything I own and placing a unit at a time and only stopping to avoid the sudden death table. Exciting. The only limits are the number of models I own, the available deployment space and the time in which I have to play. No point bringing 500 models if I only have a spare hour.
Another note is rank and file models can bring down bigger monsters much easier now, so don’t be scared if someone does bring the Bloodthirster army.
Obsolete Models/Rules
This is the hardest thing to get your head round because it involves money. I’ve publicly complained about GW bringing out replacement books for W40K, the Imperial Knight book I bought was 8 months old before they replaced it, and the 40k Rulebook was released with copy and pasted rules, background and pictures). Age of Sigmar isn’t that! It’s not replacing Warhammer Fantasy in the same way. It’s not a copy and paste rules edit, it’s a brand new thing that you can chose to play if you want. You can choose to carry on playing the previous edition of Fantasy if you prefer ranked up models.
Fantasy players have two ways of playing with their models now, whilst 40K player had to pay £50 for a copy and paste rulebook. I envy fantasy players because now they can play ranked up games or skirmish games with the same models for no additional cost!
Games Workshop might stop selling the army books for the previous edition but they’re not knocking on anyone’s door and demanding them back. In fact they’re making free rules available to play this new edition. Us poor 40k players are still paying for our rules!
The Unknown
Some people just don’t like change. That’s cool, I get it but I feel sorry for them. There is a famous change curve by psychiatrist Elisabeth Kübler-Ross which plots the course of someone’s grief from losing a loved one. Firstly, I’m NOT comparing Fantasy to the death of a loved one… but honestly, some of the comments I’ve read online seem like they are. The sense of perspective is being lost.
Heres a picture of the graph. Remember, it’s about grief, but look at how similar it is to some people’s opinions on Fantasy.
This brings me back to the “The Unknown”, the graph starts to rise and things get better at the experiment point. See, if you start to learn and experiment with Age of Sigmar it stops becoming the unknown. If you already own the models and you can download the rules for free, why wouldn’t you experiment with them? A few games later and you’re on to the next step “Decision”, learning how to work in the new situation and feeling more positive. Before you know it you’ll be fully integrated back into the swing of things enjoying your new found knowledge of Age of Sigmar.
Conclusion
I don’t think Games Workshop could have done much different to be honest. They’re releasing free, rules, free model, review samples for websites, everything is supported with new data scrolls, the game feels more inclusive than ever. You don’t need huge regiments of troops anymore which is so off putting to new players, but you can build up to that if you wish. At the moment this feels more gateway into the hobby which is perfect. You can be sure there will be expansions and more data scrolls in the future adding more detail to the game. I guess the only thing GW could have done better is communication. Take away that unknown feeling and the scare-mongering rumour sites wouldn’t have anything to report. They sent Stahly a copy of Age of Sigmar, but no press release to go with it?
So, why do I feel sad for the Fantasy Players who won’t embrace Age of Sigmar? Well they’re dragging themselves through “Denial”, “Frustration” and “Depression”. When all they have to do is go from “Shock” to “Experiment” like I have and things are awesome.
Now, some of you will be reading this article and preparing to write a long negative response in the comments, that’s cool, and please do, but ask yourself, are you at the “Denial” stage?
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So the dust has settled and I we are now months into AoS. Hopefully the haters have moved on and the lovers have embraced the game. Iwas initially one of those haters. '25 years of fluff destroyed! Four pages of rules WHAT! etc."
Luckily I had a gaming group that asked me to try it out, at least a few games.
Sceptical I was but in the interest of at least giving it a go I rolled out my old Ogres…..
And I LOVED it!
Now I'm 30-40 games in having used Ogres, HE and Brets and I think it's one of the best most fluid cinematic games GW have ever released. I've even been to a tournament (I was a big UK tournament player in all eds of WFB from 1999 onwards) and it plays fantastically as tournament game (phew)
The king is dead, long live the king. And may its reign be long and happy.
I'm not a WFB player so I have no real stake in this (other than as a side effect, the interest in Kings of War is growing). I left GW a few years ago because, all griping about them aside, I realized I really don't enjoy 40k very much- at least not among the players I could find. I've repeated that story elsewhere, so I'll skip it. Let's just say I found other things to play, and while it has been harder to find opponents, when I do play, I enjoy myself a lot more.
Back to the point- based on the rules I read (no, I have not played it, but I am willing to give it a shot), Saga and Wrath of Kings do this warband-level skirmish thing a lot better. Their rules feel tested, elegant, and polished. The AoS rules aren't terrible, but they feel like an initial beta release rather than a finished product. Hopefully GW will take full advantage of their decision to keep the rules free and digital, and continue to revise the game based on feedback from its players.
From a strict business perspective, what they did actually makes a lot of sense. The target market is younger players, and most of those do not have the time or patience for a large bug-killer of a rulebook. They want to get their stuff assembled, play as soon as the glue is dry, then start painting after they get their feet wet. The cost of entry is a lot lower overall, the game appears to play quickly, and it doesn't take itself too seriously. Time will tell if GW made the right decision, and they can always release 9th Edition if AoS truly ends up being a disaster.
The main issue with AoS is that it takes more work to figure out if what's on the table is reasonably balanced (or unbalanced in a way that will be fun for all involved) than to just say "how about 2000 points?" As such, if the players involved don't know each other that well, it'll be trickier for some to agree on something. More competitive gamers will have to move on, but GW has wanted that to happen for many years anyway.
Interesting views. Thanks for sharing.
Picked the game up over the weekend and have spent some time playing. My initial thought are firstly its not 8th edition, the game has completely changed. Its a brand new system sold as a bare bones starter set. Fun wise I enjoyed it a lot. The two armies you get are complete and it was well balanced. It reminded me a lot of having two basic MTG decks, the game also reminded me of a jacked up Warmachine.It's very fast and some of the units when combined are insane with the amount of roles you get. Overall from looking at this weeks WD I guessing this new set of rules is really going to evolve rapidly over the next few months. I really liked it and hope to see more updates.
I haven't played AoS but I did have a good read of the rules and the war scrolls for my existing armies. Regardless of gameplay and rule changes, I think there is merit in at least putting point values against models/units/weapons. This doesn't need any force organisation rules but at least having some point values would assist people in trying to field balanced armies in games and provide some boundaries to avoid it becoming a case of the richest player with the most models and biggest army wins! If this were done as a guide then I think it would alleviate what I believe to be one of the main valid concerns that has been raised. As for the rules, I can see some benefits in simplifying things a little and I can see that it leans a little towards the gameplay for 40K. However, just as they have Horus Heresy AND regular 40K, I think it may have been worthwhile essentially admitting that they have abandoned LotR and simply replaced it with AoS, running parallel with 8th edition, rather than replacing it entirely.
In fact I am in the Shock + Denial + Frustation areas…but from here I will stop. GW is doing what they want with players. They started to sell EoT and few months after they killed not just 8th edition, also EoT. Yes, people can still play the rules, but when new expansions are risen a player would expect some game support and some continuity to the game, and no continuity means that game is mostly dead (yes, some people will keep playing old rules but in general terms most people will stop playing). In the same manner, who can ensure that AoS will not die in few months? With EoT seemed that something new was coming, and with AoS seems that something new is ongoing, but if they see no huge economical benefits they'll kill it too. I won't play AoS just because I disagree how GW manage the business, because their hands-off policy ignoring changes asked by active players during several years, because killing a game after exploiting players with EoT, and the most important thing I won't play AoS because its childish and stupid rules. I don't like the AoS game, if I want to play something like this I got other cheaper games with more complete and interesting rules than AoS. Time will say if GW did a correct choice or not.
I love how ppl have short memories, I remember plenty of complaints about 8th ed when it came out and I bet a few of the previous eds had similar reactions too. I like AoS as as 8th ed is a nightmare for many who have reading difficulties. I had to learn through playing and listening to others. So I was at a monumental disadvantage to those who read the rules. I did not know many of the little bit in the book while many did and so I end up loosing a lot. Now though I can enjoy a game as I'm confident and can have fun. GW is first and foremost a business and need need new customers to survive. If this is a successful way to do it then that is good as WH will go on for years to come.
Well at least you are discussing about a Warhammer "revamp". If you were a Lotr SBG you wouldnt had anything to discuss as the game is dead and with zero support from GW.
Thanks Obama, you might as well give Iran Nukes as well to bomb us 🙂
Despite this apology for GW, I find what they have done deplorable. My 20 year old collection stares uselessly at me whilst GW cocks a snoot at us by using silly rules with all the old units I own. AoS isn't a game by any standards, It doesn't last more than 2 turns. It took longer for me to get my figures out! Why should I waste further time on this as I didn't enjoy it?
I may go back to 3rd edition or go to Kings of War whose rules are simple but much more reasonable. Or I may just sell up and leave Fantasy altogether.
Me personally I will have to try it out more.. I dont know what direction gw are going.
if people added up the amount of time this week they have gone on every possible warhammer site to say how much they hate this game (that isnt even out yet in full form) i bet they could have painted themselves a force or learnt a new system in whichever game they liked.
why invest some much time slating something that your not even gona play or collect. do you people do this with other things like films, music, video games etc.
Apart from every kind of gameplay issues with this game… has anyone noticed the new fluff? Sigmar meeting a cosmic dragon and ruling the peaceful realms from heaven, until chaos (lead by immortal Archaon) arrives and kills everyone, only for Sigmar to build angelic super-heroes in heaven and strike back. And honestly, Steamhead Duardin? I liked the dark fantasy and gritty feeling of WFB. This is something else entirely. Did they actually destroy the Old World for THIS?! Wouldn't it have been more interesting to go back in time to the actual Age of Sigmar in the Old World and build a game around that…
And on another note: the balancing issue is a problem. And the conuter-argument of "it's a game, it's supposed to be fun" is quite naive. If that is your answer to a legitimate concern about an incomplete game, then why use rules at all? You could always just play the battle without rules. Cooperative story-telling… or an actual game, as in one played by children.
Thank god WFB allready died with dignity in germany and everybody moved on to greener pastures (read better rule systems like SAGA or KoW).
Even the local stores in the vicinity I live don't plan to stock AoS because there is simply no interest from the local consumers in a game that tries to appeal to 5 year old kids that just want to smash stuff. Granted thats just anecdotal evidence from my vicinity, but I haven't heard that any of the major gaming clubs in germany plans to move on to AoS as well.
But enough rumbling: I can still use my WFB armies in SAGA 🙂
Well I understand that alot of hate is being thrown about on the internet about this game, however those who are complaining about the lack of strategy, depth of rules etc. I have to honestly ask, what rules are missing? There's hit and wounds which have always been 3+, 4+ 5+ you just used a table before. There's movement, magic, shooting, combat… all the stuff that was there in 8th. In addition I'm seeing heroic buffs in the hero phase and terrain that matters – stuff absent from 8th. Add in free rules, more complex units through warscrolls (yes MORE complex, almost every unit has special rules now which didn't exist in 8th) and a progression of the storyline. A box set with actual nice sculpts (not snapfit) and good value. Oh and they gave a free rules update for the entire model line all at once so everyone starts with a clean slate. Oh and they fixed that absolutely broken magic system of 8th edition.
and people are complaining and spewing absolute hatred at GW and anyone who dares to talk positively about this game.
WHFB was not selling. I'm good friends with my local FLGS owner and his WHFB stock just sat there gathering dust, while 40k has consistently been the top seller. GW had to change it. Not just tweak a few things and release 9th… they had to really change it or just drop the whole thing.
Is it perfect? nope. Is any game? nope. people complain constantly about every game system – check out the various blogs/forum that rip on 40k constantly. Is someone going to put 10 bloodthirsters on the table? nope, get real. Who are you playing a game with that would do that? (and who would spend the $1400 on bloodthirsters???)
I'm actually enjoying AOS and had four WHFB armies that just were gathering dust. GW gave me a fun game to play with them for free. I'm also for the first time in years, spending money on GW's fantasy system, so whatever they did worked for me.
well said brother, you dont happen to live in birmingahm uk do yah, im struggling to find more than 4 people with that view to play hahaha
*Like*.
Agree 100%. Paticularly the line: "Is it perfect? nope. Is any game? nope. people complain constantly about every game system" Sooo much truth
FAQ material. The disdain I have seen parallels, well, each time a new edition came out…imagine that!
ive said all i have to say on the game in earlier posts and why my group really likes it and has ideas for fluffy narrative games but sadly apart from the few of us we're all gona struggle to find games outside of the shops at least initially.
the amount of hate and anger that this game has caused already amazes me. i know the internet is full of assholes who wouldnt say shit to your face but people its a game, play it, dont play it who cares. how can hate be good for anybody. peace brothers 🙂
I love the "what if someone uses 10 bloodthirsters or 500 longbeards?!?!" argument, rotfl.
Do you actually have 10 bloodthirster models? How about 500 longbeards? Maybe you at least know someone that does? You're not going to put something you don't physically have on the table.
Hell, let's even assume that you have those models. Just don't use something your opponent cannot deal with and you'll be fine. The bottom line for enjoying AoS and any tabletop wargame (which is a social experience by its nature) is:
Don't
Be
A
Dick
…and you'll be fine, really.
Pretty much sums it up for me. Wheaton's Law, and so forth.
"Games Workshop might stop selling the army books for the previous edition but they're not knocking on anyone's door and demanding them back." …great line 🙂
So basically, whether your new to the game or your a old timer you are in denial if you think the game is trash? I personally have never played WHFB, but played a ton of 40K and have tried the new Sigmar rules several times and I myself thought it was garbage. Does that put me denial? Absolutely NOT!! I think it's trash because it is trash. Is this post a joke? Why are you misleading people to purchase something rubbish? Does having your work in Visions or whatever they call make you a insider for GW trying to push this game? I'm very suspicious and hope people dont buy what I think is a bought off view from GW in this article. Any one with common sense that has tried this game will tell you its rubbish. The only people I think who enjoy it are the mentally impaired. This whole post is a insult to people who follow top!!! Have you even played it ????
I sort of agree with what you are saying. I came to this site whilst searching age of sigmar review. The initial review said the game was not particularly good. However a several posts later this poster garfy seems to think this is the best thing in the world. Other reviews I have read say its pretty awful. Now from reading I'm being told from one poster if I don't like it I have a mental illness!!. The comments are also worrying looking through them. Basically anyone who disagrees with this article is attacked by the poster. C'mon!!!
Guys, I can tell you, I have played at least 10 games and it complete crap. Don't let this moron wind you up. His views are his views and he is obviously delusional or payed to write this. Any adult who has played a lot of different systems would not enjoy this. Maybe the writer is retarded. Hell, he's trying to make people feel that if they don't like it they are in denial or something with the retarded psycho chart. Have your own opinion after playing and don't get brainwashed by someone bought out or mentally impaired as the net puts it.Good miniature's don't make games
3 posts posted by "Anonymous" in a row, all in a similar style? I call shenanigans.
Also, the irony of someone accusing others of "mental impairment" in a post riddled with awkward syntax, frothing rage, and utter abuse of punctuation marks and question marks is just precious.
Ok, you played 10 games and think it's crap, there are many people reporting they had fun and I had observed people myself in a GW store having fun so to each his own.
You write nonsense insulting Garfy, because the first review from this site was not that positive so if they had stakes in this, like you claim, why would the publish that? You're looking for conspiracies. What he writes is true, it is a gigantic change and was bound to create such reactions but that does not mean the change was bad. This remains to be seen. As of now, this has many people excited.
Thanks for the review Garfy, it is good to see some different opinions. Personally, I like AoS, the models are beautiful, the rules are actually fairly good (I was very skeptical at first, I thought it would be awful), but I do feel that the balancing mechanism could do with some work, and while the theory behind it is sound, in practice it is a bit abusable, which should not be the case for a game like this.
You can have any opinion you like as long as it's the same as mine !
It's the Wayland Games write up all over again !
GW is about PROFIT pure and simple at the tend of the day .
Totally agree. They have shareholders and they want to make money.
Wow, you're really hurt by this. I hope you make it through the change curve and come back to the hobby you know you love really.
Enjoy the rest of your evening swoon.
Probably not. You are actually being insulting yourself. The poster Swoon had some good points
You two both had some very good points. There is no need for this escalation. Personally I'm going to give it a go.
This is such a predictable article. Sites like this and BoLS fall over themselves to promote something which has received near universal scorn, and they expect us to buy it? 'The balance issue is a myth''. Are you serious?!
Perhaps I regarded this site too highly before, but everyone knows you have a vested interest in the success of GW or this blog wouldn't exist. You're effectively biased through association.
I'd have so much more respect for TOP if your piece on this so-called game actually highlighted some harsh truths and took a stand against this kind of trash. But instead you just swallowed it like all the other gullible shills out there.
You can brand me as negative all you want, but your positivity just reeks of rampant adoration in the face of facts. GW has had so many opportunities to fix WFB in the past and what did they do? Double the prices and make it a horde based game.
I'm ok thanks.
This isn't my website. I don't get paid to be on here. This is my genuine opinion. Sorry it's not the same as yours. Oh and this is a chat post, not a review.
You can read stahlys review here. http://taleofpainters.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/review-warhammer-age-of-sigmar-starter.html?utm_source=BP_recent&utm-medium=gadget&utm_campaign=bp_recent
After that you can come back and apologise to me for calling me a guillible shit. That was bang out of order and uncalled for.
You're not alright. Not even close.
I don't think I called you a ''gullible shit''. Perhaps I should be offended that you're putting words in my mouth? Can you point out where I wrote that?
No need to be sorry that we share different opinions. If you think AOS is fantastic, then that's fine. From my point of view I think people should be angered at what GW has presented them. If more people took a stand against this sudden drop in quality, they might not have to put up with it in the future. Have fun painting up all the new Space Marines.
Shit or shill… You're still disrespectful.
''Now, some of you will be reading this article and preparing to write a long negative response in the comments, that's cool, and please do''.
Dude, if you're going to write opinion pieces on the internet you have to be prepared to receive opinions that don't match your own. Judging from your response above, as well as on other articles you've posted, you have a hard time dealing with criticism and often get defensive over the smallest things. You've already told one poster above to stop reading TOP because AOS has spiked their interest in other games. Grow up.
"From my point of view I think people should be angered at what GW has presented them."
Why do you dictate people should be pissed off? GW released something and it's people's choice to like it or not. I, for example, do like all the new stuff from the aesthetic point of view because I have not had a chance to play games yet. I had 0 investment in Fantasy, other than having some unpainted models and having never played a game. Playing WFB was a nigh on unachieveable dream because by the time I'd read the rulebook and an army book, I'd be 60. Now I am genuinely interested in this and if I didn't have so much 40k stuff I'd probably pick this starter set.
And the fixation with Sigmarines…man…yeah, I agree, it might not be that original if you keep comparing to SM but now there's a signature faction for Fantasy with a strong, recognisable aesthetic and nothing is stopping people from getting the other 12 (or 13?) factions. I mean if SM worked so well for GW, why would they not want to replicate this in the other system? I just ask myself "do I like the way they look and do I like their theme" rather than "are these original? Is there something similar out there that this was ripped off from?"
I have to toss this idea here. Maybe this is the way GW is exiting the business, which I find brilliant. They end the world they built their business upon for such a long time and then they exit too. Brilliant!
And here come the conspiracy theories!
you could do it with the old ruleset because ive doen it but it took time to change things and with the ranked models it never felt right, we came up with this stuff in two mintues of looking at the rules. if you think this way just reading the warscrolls will get the juices flowing for what you can do. when looked at this way the easy open rules make sense.
and orcs were made to run in like a mob not ranked up!!!!
Right. I'm convinced. That chaos army in boxes…getting round bases!
you dont even need to do that. theres one stupid rule which is measure from the model not the base. we ignored that straight away just measure from the base. theres really not that much difference in sizes. doesnt take much of a brain to tell that the models would be closer if not for the base size. anything that would touch is in combat for me. just base them on squares then you can cross use them in both systems
ive been playing fantasy since 93 and have put thousands of pounds into this hobby and over that time anyone who didnt see the writing on the wall is mad, fantasy has been in its death throws for years. players were leaving and it was just the hardcore guys left. i love the game but its had its day in the sun. players today dont have the patience for the painting or playing time this game offers. its like a historical game.
on the reviews ive not seen many people whove played the game at all or more than once. those who have and have video proof like miniwargaming (of which i am a vault member and noramlly do like) took the game where its clearly never meant to be taken. as this game stands, its clearly not designed for building armies to be the strongest they can be, its clearly a narrative system for story driven games. if as a player this isnt you thing then fine, but the game isnt broken at all. ive played 5 games now since saturday morning with four people and 6 different races and proxying models for the new stuff as well and its not broken or just run in the middle. it will be if you play it that way just like 8th can be if you play it that way.
i think in time we'll look back and say this is little more than something being said so many times that it must be true and websites doing what websites do putting up stories and opinions that will get clicks.
What about it makes it more for campaigns and narrative gaming?
I love campaign-gaming, thats currently the only way I play now.
so we set up some classic game stories that worked really. the best was a encamped dwarf force being outnumbered by a much larger orc force. with the sudden death rules we had the dwarfs try to kill the orc warboss for an instant win suggesting without their huge leader the orcs would disband and it worked great.
we had some beastmen trying to capture monsters. all the monsters get worse as they get wounded so we said once the monsters get down to one wound they would use the fall over wound and the beastmen would capture them. its brill having five monsters like giants, ghorgons etc up againist a beastmen force.
we did a classic normal battle which with stand or retreat rule if stronger units can charge and force other units to be within 3" they have to retreat becasue wont be able to stand up to the stronger unit in combat. so movement does matter.
we did some empire heros looking for artifacts againist a undead force and again it seemed to work fine. it just takes some imagination. honestly give it go it was a hoot 🙂
this i sexactly sort of thing me and one of my freinds have talked about.
a giant raid on a small empire town/village.
a small force of town guard and local villagers trying to survive against 4-5 giants on a hunt for beer and fresh meat.
and my point is because the rules are so open you havent gotta work out how to change the game to fit anything you can just play it.
ive been posting allot so will stop but with some real thought put into it my group is gona have a great time seeing what we can do with the crazy warscroll
Cool. so that makes sense. A lot of this stuff could have been done with the old ruleset, but I can see how the monster rules, sudden-death, and triumph rules make it easier and more fluffy.
Sounds like fun Tom! 😀
Tom I think this is exactly what GW were aiming for with AoS. An open-ended, simple rule set that allows for imaginative, fluffy games to be played. These are exactly the type of scenarios that I want to be playing with my Fantasy minis and I'm glad to see I'm not the only one 🙂
i dont get why everyone is crying of this. if you love 8th or any previous edition just continue to play that. the second hand market on fantasy models even really old 80's metal ones is huge on ebay. yourl be able to buy everything you want, infact i bet theres been an increase this week in whole armies being put on ebay for sale as people rage quit. all competitive tournaments comp the shit out of the game anyway so that wont change and casual, fluffy players like me changed things to make crazy narrative games as was my want.
i dont get what you lost? all the novels are still available digitally on blacklibrary, the models can still be got on the second hand market, if you were playing before you have the rules already and updates will now go through the roof from the community or GM's at tournaments.
im not gona stop playing 8th but im gona play this as well, i want new fluff, new army concepts and new players.
I wouldn't say everyone's crying. I would say its more disbelief that GW would scrap a well designed system for a new system that's poorly designed, has broken rules, that's repetitive and overall completely lackluster. I personally think fantasy deserves better than this. The Age of Sigmar is only getting negative reviews and feedback due to people not liking it. One thing I would not do is try and defend a game that is broken,boring and seems just lazy. Maybe in the future if GW suddenly puts out advanced rules I will change my mind. A lot of people feel betrayed by these new rules who have been playing warhammer for many years and have large collections of models. Tim
Nobody is crying. We just chose to invest our money in other game systems.
What you still doing here Val? This is GW only blog? Nothing for you here. Cya.
I've never played WFB, so I have no axe to grind or horse in the race (enough metaphors for you?). To be honest, when I first saw this product announcement, I thought it was for WH40K, owing to the fully armored miniatures that just "look" 40K-ish. When I found out it was actually a new WFB product, it piqued my interest.
I gave up GW stuff many years ago and sold off my 40K items and I still don't regret it. AoS has now got me thinking that maybe I'll jump in now at the "ground floor" and see where it leads me. I just wish I could find a local store that sold the White Dwarf with the free model so I could give painting it a try.
Great posting, and your points are well-founded.
I think the biggest question that GW should of asked themselves is why people would play this game as opposed to 40K, Bolt Action, MTG, X-Wing etc.
Psychology tables aside, I think the biggest problem with the Age of Sigmar is that it has been getting overall awful reviews, people who have played it say it is very boring, the rules are bare bones. Even the reviewer on this site thought it was pretty poor. A boring, predictable game aimed at 7 years old's if that is not my idea of a fun game. When I play a game I want something that makes me think, that's exciting and a system that I an trust. The Age of Sigmar just does not grab my attention as being something I would want to invest my time into.
Yeah. The models aren't the best Games Workshop has ever put out but they're OK and have a good amount of detail. The backstory they've given it is really very very naff but players could just overlook that and it might get better.
The problem is that the game is boring. It get's a lot of people defending it as "I found it fun when I played it with my friends" but everything is more fun when you do it with some good friends, my friends and I used to play a game of throwing a citrus fruit at each other as hard as we could and, (largely due to alcohol) that was quite fun, but it wasn't the fruit throwing that was fun, it was hanging around with friends and that doesn't excuse the game being bland and shallow (or messy and painful in the case of the fruit game) even if you fix the more obvious faults.
What I'm trying to say is: Age of Sigmar, not really as fun as throwing fruit at your friends.
Now the fruit throwing game sounds like a lot of fun lol. I get what you mean though.
Anything is more interesting than 2 hours of +3 +5,+3 +5,+3 +5,+3 +5,+3 +5. I saw on Miniwargaming they even quit mid game due to how monotonous it was.
Throwing fruit game sounds awesome. I bet is much cheaper than GW stuff too. :))
A lime or lemon costs less than a pound in some shops.
Ok, it kind of feels like you're placing blame on the people who are unhappy about AoS and completely absolving GW here.It almost sounds like you're saying, if you don't like this new game, its your fault because you cannot accept change. Am I off-base here?
There's a lot of problems with this new game. LIke…do I have now bring my whole collection to my FLGS in order to have a balanced game?
People are entitled to their opinions.
Not sure how that responds to my comment, but ok. I haven't played AoS. To me, the boxed set looks awesome! I would totally get that and just play with those forever. It seems a balanced set of two forces and all the model are cool and totally fit the skirmish-type rules set.
funny thing is, I like the rules, and the 'vintage' models Battlescrolls have some fun wackyness to them, harkening back to GW's early start, but…..
I really don't like the figures in the new box, I've never really liked Chaos figures anyway, and the Sigmarites just….. I don't know, they are too much like space marines for my tastes and I want figures which stand out from each other, I could slap those down next to some blood angels and would mistake them for them…..
Still at least with the free battlescrolls I can get some games in if I want to!
It's good to see a contrast to the pretty relentless negatively on the net about the change. Thanks for the fresh view on this Garfy and the reminder of the more open approach GW has taken on this. They certainly are brave and you genuinely have to admire that.
To contradict myself, I do have mixed feelings about losing the background and core rules of the old Warhammer, though. I would hate to see the end of ranked up regiments facing each other across the filed. I still think GW allowed some great specialist games to wither without rules & miniatures support and the corresponding inflow of fresh players. Maybe this is the chance to reboot the system and keep the system alive and strong; I genuinely hope they do so, but I hope something doesn't get lost along the way.
This doesn't at all address the biggest problem with the game, which is that it's just downright dull.
There's no depth to it whatsoever, and games play out by moving your models to the center and then just rolling dice until somebody wins*
Being told that ~30 years of lore and an engaging game system has been destroyed in favor of a boring dice-off doesn't sit very well with the kind of gamers that want their games to have more depth than a paddling pool.
*nobody wins, because they played this game instead of doing something else.
Agree with your points. But the changes apparently were not made to promote a fun, interesting and strategic game. GW is trying, like some already mentioned, to attract more younger players. How this is going to work out we will see.
Also, if they wanted to improve the rules, for God sake, they have LoTR rules which are by far the best rules GW manage to create EVER. Or how about Mordheim or Necromunda, which they buried long time ago? Good choices are there, is just that they do not seem to align with GW business goals.
And in the end, if I just want to roll dices then I rather play zombie dice than AoS. I am not joking, I really recommend the game, is fun, fast and it involves dice 😉
Honestly i want to give the new game a try whenever I get a chance too.. and I'm even thinking you could keep your army ranked up… Melee has range now and ROUGHLY!!!!!!! one inch is your second rank and 2+ In case of spears is 3-4 ranks… it kind of balances out to be the same as before… and would keep the battlefield neat and easier to move still. Cant remember but in the rules it doesn't say your units have to be "skirmishing" .5 inches away from each other =P
WHFB had to change, it needed new life desperately. GW needs to move forward with their business model so what better way to accomplish both than AoS? I think it's a very smart move on the part of GW. While Fantasy players have my sympathy – change is scary, I think in the end it's going to see the game flourish.
They just need to mass produce round bases for us and sell them at a reasonable price hehe
What better way? Innovation Eighth Edition to provide better gameplay, provide an in-system skirmish game alongside it that doesn't kill off 30+ years of lore that everyone loves. Don't make a four page ruleset that is rife with issues and errors.
Change is not scary. Please everybody stop throwing this arrogant argument in a discussion about wargaming rules.
And no, WHFB did not need to change much. I agree GW needs to improve their business which continues to go south for quite some time. As for innovation, I said it before and I repeat it here: GW killed some pretty good gaming system before, like Mordheim, Necromunda or even the Ancient version. LoTR has some pretty good rules, the best GW manage to create EVER. So yes, if they REALLY wanted something good to replace WHFB with, then there are plenty of good inspirations around. But GW agenda is different. Time will tell where AoS will bring GW. We will see.
Val, interesting you bring up LoTR: A fellow at my FLGS said the AoS rules reminded him of that system.
Good read indeed. I can't wait to dive into AoS this weekend, and I too, truly feel sorry for those who are so against this shake up to Fantasy. This whole balancing issue that so many people are bringing up can be rectified if you're just not there to "game the system". So many people seem like they want to know their restrictions so they can then find the further "loopholes" that are still legal to the system.
Honestly. I'm just looking forward to picking up whatever models sound/look cool and playing them on the table. The lack of min/max rules is rather refreshing.
Just my 2 cents, though. Not meant to offend or anger anyone. I'd love for all to embrace this new venture for GW. It's certainly an interesting time!
As Tim Davis wrote, they did just release "a series of books called THE END TIMES"
Admittedly the level of change mechanically wasn't given out and has caused some 'interesting' discussion about the lack of tactics and formations. having had a couple of small games, there are some tactics to be had just very different to the old way.
regarding army choice/list building… generally, a lot of people seem to be using 'number of wounds' to build an army army rather than number of models, and limiting things to 1-2 characters for smaller games. The major rule of thumb I'm liking to quote a freind is "just don't be a dick and try powergaming it and it should be good" I have a friend who detests AoS another like myself who rather likes it for what it is, and the potential story based games that can be had from it as well as being able to just use a couple of units for a quick few games. we are still also going to keep playing 8th once in awhile as we like that for what it is too.
You talk as if there was no alternative to AOS nowadays. The integration phase can also be a massive exodus away from GW fantasy line. AOS is not directed toward the previous wfb customers after all but toward new players = kids and MAYBE casual players.
'This lack of balance in Age of Sigmar is a myth. If your opponent places a Bloodthirster on the table, make sure the next unit you place is something to deal with it. It's highly unlikely your opponent will keep placing Bloodthirsters.'
Don't you think you're shooting down you first statement one sentence later? So balance is achieved by having a huge collection which will allow you to bring on the table something to counter your opponent units? What if I have 10 bloodthirsters and I keep piling them on the table while you can't?
Those rules seem to be full of loopholes.
The only good thing I may see is the return of scenarios with defined type armies or units just like GW did with rogue trader. Think of the old battle at th farm.
No balance is achieved by being able to place a unit directly in response to his unit without being constrained to a pre-determined list.
That'd be assuming all units have a counter, or that the rules were written in respects to some sort of balance. What were once Core choices are generally just obsolete when you'd just always prefer to take the Elite version of them – Why? Because they are better. No max unit size makes things pretty weird. "Oh, a Bloodthirster? Here's literally 500 Longbeards for you to try to cut through, and it's one Warscroll."
Things can chance with some more rules, but as of now AoS looks very largely incomplete. Which is sad and disappointing. I'll reserve judgement later down the road (which is currently a common theme when looking at GW's releases). There are other games out there, so they need to step up their game and do good things now that make sense now.
Being optimistic is fine, but a severe lack of rules doesn't create some sort of cosmic balance that will play out fine in the end. So denial may lie with you. I want Age of Sigmar to be great, and I fell in love with Fantasy during 8th (the edition that apparently killed it off), but it's not great just because it's released and has rules for free.
Imagine a game of chess where I put down a queen, then you put down a queen, then I put down a queen, then you put down a queen, but I'm out of queens and you still have 11 left in your box.
Lol, I'm not in denial? I'm not going through frustration and depression. You openly say "which is sad and disappointing".
Textbook change curve. See you on the other side.
@Nico and Skaven: but you're taking this to the extreme. Sure, perhaps "that guy" will say "Here are my 11+ Bloodthirsters, try countering that HAR HAR!" But what's the fun in that (and who has 11 Bloodthirsters O_O)? So here's where the social aspect comes in. Find the balancing style you like for your group, if countering each other doesn't work, try the wounds balancing or whatever, till GW comes with something solid (if they give us anything at all). Sure thing game will suck for tournaments, but it's clearly not build for it. So sort it out with each other, try things…. for Sigmar sakes… Have FUN! 😀
Agree. There are many GW alternatives out there. For example I got into Malifaux, and I discovered it is a very good skirmish game. Plus with all the money I was planning to buy GW stuff I can afford to buy EVERYTHING I need for Malifaux. So long and thanks for all the fish!
Spot on! well said
Personally this is the first time in 17 years since i sold my wood elves that i have been remotely interested in fantasy. If anything i love the way it forces you to play in a social manner, no longer does fantasy seem like a poor substitute to a good RTS, other than the mini's oldhammer just left me cold as a game, where as AoS seems like a game i could get a quick battle in a lunch break with (lucky enough to work with a few like minded chaps so we often play board or card games during our lunch break, bemoaning the fact we dont have the time to play a mini based game). Now im planning a battle for stapler gorge 😉
All I can say is: hear, hear!
I agree with your sentiments completely.
Well said!
Thanks for the more positive and calm response on AoS Garfy! Really the amount of rage and hate it gets is… ugh… staggering (and not to mention very tiresome!). I do understand their anger and concern about their beloved miniatures/setting, but please, stay calm, take rumours with piles of salt, play the game and then decide if you're gonna quit or not. I also hope that GW makes this game awesome and blow us away with great models and an interesting setting! Funny thing is, although I'm a 40k player I've always wanted to have a Lizardmen army and now with AoS and free rules, I'm very interested! 😀
I glad to see some people happy with the new game. Was worried I was seeing a complete collapse!
Honestly? I'm in love with Aos!
I quitted playing WFB about 15 years ago and never ever returned (apart from Mordheim and Bloodbowl), but AoS is very appealing to me and this will be the first thing from GW I'll buy since Mines of Mora.
Well written Garfy. How people weren't expecting this change bewilders me. Games workshop just went through a series of books called THE END TIMES.
I was a little sad when I realised what was happening, it's the death of an iconic world we've all spent so much time imagining our figures fighting in. I'm now very excited for what's coming!
It may be raining now but eventually the sun will shine 😉
Garfy could work as a professional change Manager. Point is what if the experiment and decision Phase lead to the conclusion that the change wasn't worth it?
Food for thought.
I think that's the healthiest way to discover if you don't like something. So long as you've tried it and given it a go. Just skip denial, frustration and depression and go straight into experimenting. If you don't like it that cool, least you avoided all the heartache and didn't let others ill-informed opinion sway your choice.
I'd just like to say, as you pointed out, AoS is far more appealing to new players than Fantasy ever was. I've avoided Fantasy/40k for ages due to the high buy-in price, and very off-putting rules that centered around winning, rather than having fun. I've had friends trying to get me into Warhammer for ages now, but I had zero interest in the game until AoS came out. Now, I'm whole heartedly excited about playing the game casually with my friends!